Talk about the difference in philosophies between 'Kids do well if they want to' versus 'Kids do well if they can'. Respond by commenting on this post.
I understand and believe in the philosophy that 'kids do well if they can' and that the reason students are exhibiting challenging behaviors is because they are lacking certain skills. It is difficult, however, to completely change to that mindset. It is so easy to fall back on excuses such as he has a difficult home life, parents let him do whatever he wants, or he just is unmotivated. But those excuses clearly aren't helpful to solving anyone's problems. There is nothing we can do about those external things that are not in our control. The way to help solve the problems of the challenging students is truly to change our own attitudes and focus on the lagging skills.
I agree, Lindsay! I WANT to change my mindset to "kids do well if they can," but like you said, it's so hard when it comes down to a moment where a student is exhibiting challenging behavior and you're in the middle of a lesson with 29 other students. I'm looking forward to hearing about some of the strategies Greene will suggest (hopefully) in upcoming chapters to help with lagging skills in our challenging students.
When I am one-on-one with a student, I can whole-heartedly agree and keep in mind that kids do well if they CAN. Put me in a room of 25+ students, with varying needs and behaviors and those beliefs quickly escape my mind. I guess that means I'm not a total believer yet?! I also think, like Lindsay said, that its easy to uses home life excuses as a reason for being unable to "get through" to a student, when in fact they serve no purpose other than to steer us off path from anything that will truly help the child. I found the list of lagging skills in Chapter 2 to be very eye-opening, as it made me realize that the bulk of my students have quite a few lagging skills! As soon as I began reading about the ALSUP form I was anxious to start having some ideas of things I can do to help with the areas I can control - school and my relationship with my students. - Lauren
We had a PD a year or 2 ago that the presenter stressed exactly this: "Kids do well if they can." I remember it not being received very well from our staff. It was a bit mixed. I truly believe this takes a huge shift in perspective. Why would would any child want to intentionally do wrong? I think we must reflect ourselves on our practices and biases. Sitting in data day there were so many kids who we passed by, or allowed ourselves to give these excuses for. We are so pressed for time, that excuses seem to prevail. I wish we could use some of these 1/2 days for filling out this form as a team. It might truly help the kids (and our classroom climates) who need it the most.
Great idea Laura! I feel many times at these meetings we come up with excuses why the child isn't doing well instead of coming up with ways to help them. I think this would be so beneficial in all of our rooms.
Exactly Laura. Why would a kid not want to do well? I know kids often say "I don't care.", but that is just a defense mechanism, but many adults buy that line. It is a huge paradigm shift for people and the time pressures that teachers feel are real. I have a list of descriptors that I refuse to use when discussing students: unmotivated, defiant, oppositional, attention- seeking, aggressive, assaultive, insubordinate . . . not helpful.
Hi Sue. With conferences coming up, what words would you use in place of your list. unmotivated= Not working up to his potential. I use that one but if it isn't good I'd like to change.
I do believe that kids to well if they can. I have two students that really do have a lot of lagging skills because they started school younger. It was recommended they stay back in kindergarten because they were so immature. Their immaturity continues this year. Now I will have a new perspective and try to be a little more patient in teaching the skills they need. Many of them are very basic skills.
Hi Sherry. It is most helpful to describe the behaviors or difficulties that you observe with your students. When we get into discussions about Plan B, we will talk about wording the unsolved problem so that we aren't talking about behavior. When we are talking with parents, we can be descriptive without blaming. It will be helpful to think in terms of lagging skills. Here are some examples: spends time getting out paper, sharpening pencils, talking to peers, instead of beginning his writing assignment right away; appears frustrated and puts her head down when we are doing a timed math test; continues to talk to other students when we are in line for music and waiting for 0 voice level; has conflicts about playing tag with two peer at recess; doesn't add much detail in writing unless I continue to prompt her to write more. We will read later that most of the skills on the list of lagging skills cannot be taught in isolation, except for social skills. The lagging skills are taught in the context of the Plan B meeting. In the Plan B meeting, we are asking the kid to think about and express their concerns regarding an unsolved problem. We then ask them to listen to the adult concerns (perspective-taking; considering how their behavior affects others). Lastly, we invite them to problem solve to find a solution that is acceptable to them, but also to the adult.
The idea that "Kids do well if they can" makes sense. Getting in trouble, getting bad grades, etc. just makes life harder. Why would a kid WANT to make life harder? However, it often feels like we are providing students with so many different accommodations and tools to succeed, that in the end, it really comes down to their choices. I realize after reading this chapter and the list of lagging skills, that we probably just haven't found the right tools to help them yet. It is easy to just write a kid off by saying "They don't care" or "They are choosing to act this way", when really we should just keep trying to figure out what they really need to be successful.
I understand and believe in the philosophy that 'kids do well if they can' and that the reason students are exhibiting challenging behaviors is because they are lacking certain skills. It is difficult, however, to completely change to that mindset. It is so easy to fall back on excuses such as he has a difficult home life, parents let him do whatever he wants, or he just is unmotivated. But those excuses clearly aren't helpful to solving anyone's problems. There is nothing we can do about those external things that are not in our control. The way to help solve the problems of the challenging students is truly to change our own attitudes and focus on the lagging skills.
ReplyDeleteI agree, Lindsay! I WANT to change my mindset to "kids do well if they can," but like you said, it's so hard when it comes down to a moment where a student is exhibiting challenging behavior and you're in the middle of a lesson with 29 other students. I'm looking forward to hearing about some of the strategies Greene will suggest (hopefully) in upcoming chapters to help with lagging skills in our challenging students.
ReplyDeleteWhen I am one-on-one with a student, I can whole-heartedly agree and keep in mind that kids do well if they CAN. Put me in a room of 25+ students, with varying needs and behaviors and those beliefs quickly escape my mind. I guess that means I'm not a total believer yet?!
ReplyDeleteI also think, like Lindsay said, that its easy to uses home life excuses as a reason for being unable to "get through" to a student, when in fact they serve no purpose other than to steer us off path from anything that will truly help the child. I found the list of lagging skills in Chapter 2 to be very eye-opening, as it made me realize that the bulk of my students have quite a few lagging skills!
As soon as I began reading about the ALSUP form I was anxious to start having some ideas of things I can do to help with the areas I can control - school and my relationship with my students. - Lauren
We had a PD a year or 2 ago that the presenter stressed exactly this: "Kids do well if they can." I remember it not being received very well from our staff. It was a bit mixed. I truly believe this takes a huge shift in perspective. Why would would any child want to intentionally do wrong? I think we must reflect ourselves on our practices and biases. Sitting in data day there were so many kids who we passed by, or allowed ourselves to give these excuses for. We are so pressed for time, that excuses seem to prevail. I wish we could use some of these 1/2 days for filling out this form as a team. It might truly help the kids (and our classroom climates) who need it the most.
ReplyDeleteGreat idea Laura! I feel many times at these meetings we come up with excuses why the child isn't doing well instead of coming up with ways to help them. I think this would be so beneficial in all of our rooms.
DeleteExactly Laura. Why would a kid not want to do well? I know kids often say "I don't care.", but that is just a defense mechanism, but many adults buy that line. It is a huge paradigm shift for people and the time pressures that teachers feel are real. I have a list of descriptors that I refuse to use when discussing students: unmotivated, defiant, oppositional, attention- seeking, aggressive, assaultive, insubordinate . . . not helpful.
ReplyDeleteHi Sue. With conferences coming up, what words would you use in place of your list. unmotivated= Not working up to his potential. I use that one but if it isn't good I'd like to change.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI do believe that kids to well if they can. I have two students that really do have a lot of lagging skills because they started school younger. It was recommended they stay back in kindergarten because they were so immature. Their immaturity continues this year. Now I will have a new perspective and try to be a little more patient in teaching the skills they need. Many of them are very basic skills.
ReplyDeleteHi Sherry. It is most helpful to describe the behaviors or difficulties that you observe with your students. When we get into discussions about Plan B, we will talk about wording the unsolved problem so that we aren't talking about behavior. When we are talking with parents, we can be descriptive without blaming. It will be helpful to think in terms of lagging skills. Here are some examples: spends time getting out paper, sharpening pencils, talking to peers, instead of beginning his writing assignment right away; appears frustrated and puts her head down when we are doing a timed math test; continues to talk to other students when we are in line for music and waiting for 0 voice level; has conflicts about playing tag with two peer at recess; doesn't add much detail in writing unless I continue to prompt her to write more.
ReplyDeleteWe will read later that most of the skills on the list of lagging skills cannot be taught in isolation, except for social skills. The lagging skills are taught in the context of the Plan B meeting. In the Plan B meeting, we are asking the kid to think about and express their concerns regarding an unsolved problem. We then ask them to listen to the adult concerns (perspective-taking; considering how their behavior affects others). Lastly, we invite them to problem solve to find a solution that is acceptable to them, but also to the adult.
The idea that "Kids do well if they can" makes sense. Getting in trouble, getting bad grades, etc. just makes life harder. Why would a kid WANT to make life harder? However, it often feels like we are providing students with so many different accommodations and tools to succeed, that in the end, it really comes down to their choices. I realize after reading this chapter and the list of lagging skills, that we probably just haven't found the right tools to help them yet. It is easy to just write a kid off by saying "They don't care" or "They are choosing to act this way", when really we should just keep trying to figure out what they really need to be successful.
ReplyDelete